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new to this medium

#1 2008-07-15 04:18:59

Sprockett
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2008-07-15
Posts: 13

new to this medium

hi there i just love this place!
thank you for creating it and sharing your knowledge.

i have always had a love of paper arts and puppetry, but only once in my life
have i tried papier mache, and all i made was a small head.
but it turned out quite well actually.

most recently i have been creating cut paper illustrations which
have a pseudo 3D feel to them, but i'd like to take them a step further
and go full on 3D by creating papier mache characters and scenes.
currently i am working on a 12 x 12 shadow box theatre scene which is about 3 inches deep.

i have a few questions...
1) where does one buy chicken wire? is it easy to form into small figure shapes and do the strips of paper mold over the wire nicely?

2)what do people recommend most for creating small figures? i need them to be fairly lightweight. is plasticine a good idea or does it end up becoming quite heavy?

3)is it possible to use straight mod podge glue (this glue is said to be used for decoupage projects) to dip the strips of paper into, instead of making a mixture of flour and water, or do i need both in fact?

i keep editing with more questions.
hope that's ok!
thanks much all.

Last edited by Sprockett (2008-07-15 05:20:26)

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#2 2008-07-15 08:31:52

newmodeller
Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 2007-02-07
Posts: 240
Website

Re: new to this medium

The wire is often known as rabbit wire and can ususally be picked up from hardware stores.  Here in the UK you usually buy it in a roll.  As long as the mesh is fairly small and made of easily bendable wire you should find any of the small animal fencing is ok,  if you don't have a hardware store near try a pet shop as they sometimes sell it for owners of rabbits, guineapigs etc.

I have always found with using this wire for an armature that it is important for first wrap the whole wire structure in a pre pm layer, either masking tape or strips of cloth soaked in white glue.  It stops the rusting of the wire, which seaps through and stains and it also smooths out the hexagons prior to adding the pm, especially if you are laminating paper strips rather than using pulp.

Plasticine can become incredibly heavy if you leave it in the pm.  HOWEVER, it is fabulous for making a cast.  I made my Pirate Pete this way.  I made plasticine forms for each limb and then layered and laminated several layers of pm over them and let them dry thoroughly.  Then I cut them off the casts and dug out the plasticine.  I put the two halves of each section back together and then added a couple more layers of pm to it before finishing with fine grade pulp.  That way you get a lightweight model.  A word of warning, if you are making puppets you do have to make sure that you weight parts of the puppet correctly, particularly with marionettes as they don't hang or move correctly if they are too light.

Have a look at the CMC powder post for more details about mod podge.  From the experience of Maria I would suggest that you only use this as a sealant when your piece is completely dry.  Have a look at David Osbourne's article on the home page about pastes.  Most people use thin wallpaper paste, or a wallpaper paste and white glue mix.

Dive in and have fun, don't worry if things go wrong it is how we learn most about what we do.

Charlotte


www.pawtraits.co.uk
www.puppetsndolls.etsy.com
Papiermache.co.uk gallery: Charlotte Hills

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#3 2008-07-15 14:57:17

Sprockett
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2008-07-15
Posts: 13

Re: new to this medium

Charlotte thank you so much for your detailed reply.
i appreciate it much and i learned a lot!
i love your avatar, too.

i am interested now in how many layers of PM you generally use for a smaller sized figure over plasticine, and also how exactly you cut it open, and then how you form it all back together. i am under the impression that you made each limb separately with the plasticine and then PM'd them and then cut the plasticine out and then glued everything together. did i get that right?

thanks again!

i just took a look at your gallery. WOW very inspiring!
i noticed how you used the chicken wire for the arms of one of your pieces.. i think it was cinderella and fairy godmother? i noticed how you left some wire not PM'd so that the arms can bend if need be perhaps? that's exactly what i need to do! with the legs too! I will have a girl riding a whale in a big wave about half way up my shadow box so i need her to be fairly lightweight and expressive, so the wire would be beneficial on both notes methinks.

i will have 2 more characters standing on the bottom of the shadow box so it is ok if they are heavier i am thinking. would you agree? perhaps i could use plasticine for them and actually leave it in?

i am so excited to have found this website!

Last edited by Sprockett (2008-07-15 15:06:40)

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#4 2008-07-15 17:21:58

dopapier
Moderator
From: UK
Registered: 2004-12-04
Posts: 754

Re: new to this medium

I definitely wouldn't leave the plasticine in.  Mould the separate parts in plasticene then cover it with clingfilm.  Apply about six layers of paper at least as strong as newspaper.  Allow each part to dry.  Use a very sharp knife to cut round most of the circumference (it's useful to leave a bit that can act as a hinge and make rejoining easier).
Pull out the plasticene and any loose clingfilm.  Using a small amount of spirit glue (you see we can be supernatural here!!??), rejoin the two halves and apply at least two more layers of paper.  You can then link all the different sections with more layering.
As Charlotte said, read my article about 'What paste to use'.  You also might find some interest in the article on using Eggs.
Chicken wire is impractical in small stuff.  The 'Skating Frog' in my gallery was made on a plasticene base as I have just described.  As a result it is extremely light and can be held in an overbalancing position just with a strong wire.
We look forward to seeing your results.
David (Osborne)


I'm a PM addict

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#5 2008-07-15 18:45:45

CatPerson
Moderator
From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: new to this medium

I suspect that the chicken wire would be very unsuitable for small objects that would fit into a shadow box. The smallest mesh size that I have found is 1/2" (12mm).

The number of plasticine parts that you would have to make for a single creation depends on how complicated the figure is.  If you wanted to make a basic, uncomplicated figure (or shape), you could make it all in one piece:  form it in Plasticine, wrap it in a couple layers of paper strips, let it dry very well, then use a razor knife to slit it around the center, remove the clay and put back together as Charlotte describes. Then you could add surface features on top of that.

But if your figures are quite small, you could use permanent wire armatures as a very basic skeleton. (See http://cityrose-taa.blogspot.com/2008/0 … n-wip.html for an example.)  I have found that applying PM to bare wire is rather tricky, but you can wrap the wire with aluminum foil to build up some 'muscle', and then apply PM to that.  If you want your figures to move at the joints, you can build up the 'bones' and leave the wire free at the joints. This takes a delicate hand and constant attention as you go. It's almost impossible to cover the joint and free it for movement after the PM has dried. Not totally impossible, but you probably will remember not to make that mistake twice!

Be aware that with wire armatures, it is perfectly all right to use multiple strands of wire for strength, and you can use the same wire to wrap the 'bones' to build up 'muscle', but moveable joints work best with single strands of heavier wire than multiple strands of lighter ones.

Regarding Charlotte's reference to ModPodge: there is something in it that seems to conflict with paint if you use it for anything but a final sealer. However, you CAN use plain white PVA craft glue as an adhesive. The two  appear to be the same sort of product, but are not.

Flour/water adhesive is very inexpensive, but will absorb moisture from the atmosphere, and can be attractive to insects and vermin.

Leaving Plasticine inside PM is not a good idea, as it is oil-based and the oil will eventually be absorbed by the PM from the inside. Like trapped moisture, it could affect your finished project negatively over time.

Sue

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#6 2008-07-16 09:43:16

newmodeller
Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 2007-02-07
Posts: 240
Website

Re: new to this medium

Hi,
David and Sue's advice is pretty much what I have done, the only difference is that I use vaseline rather than cling film to cover the plasticine,  It is messier but I personally find it easier than film.  You're right about the number of parts for the figure, they were all made individually and then strung together later.  I used David Currell's Making and Manipulating Marionettes to help me design each piece; I followed the carved figure forms and use them as the basis.  He is very good on loose joints but not on bendable ones.  I would contact someone who does stop frame animation as they would be able to tell you what the best material to use would be, try this tutorial:

http://www.stopmotionanimation.com/handbook/5.htm

Charlotte


www.pawtraits.co.uk
www.puppetsndolls.etsy.com
Papiermache.co.uk gallery: Charlotte Hills

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#7 2008-07-16 16:23:22

Sprockett
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2008-07-15
Posts: 13

Re: new to this medium

David, Sue, and Charlotte,
thank you all so much for your very helpful advice and knowledge. last night i played around with making a small figure, well, just the arms and head. i used wire for the arms and built up muscle in foil and then papier mache strips and left the elbow joint alone and this morning it is dry and it still bends! so i am pleased about that. the head is still wet on one side.

i used wallpaper paste called Richard Multi-Purpose Wall Size Adhesive mixed with boiling water and some whole wheat flour (because that's all i have in my kitchen) and i stirred it all up with a fork and then let it cool. i ended up putting it in the fridge for about 10 minutes and then i went at it.

there are bits of the wheat grain all over which i imagine can't be such a good thing. also the side the head was lying on overnight is still sopping wet. i don't think this wallpaper paste is right, or something. the reason i added the flour was because the consistency of the wallpaper paste didn't seem the same as when i did papier mache before.

might anybody have a link to where one could buy proper wallpaper paste online?

i am so grateful for your help and also for the links you have shared with me which i have read and bookmarked. i will definitely share with you all my finished piece.

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#8 2008-07-17 18:13:01

CatPerson
Moderator
From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: new to this medium

The brands that I have listed are Roman/Golden Harvest, Teknabond, Metylan. I know they exist, but I have had to order the dry cellulose wallpaper paste online, because no store in the local counties carries it. After you mix it, you may have to wait 4 hours to overnight for the product to completely absorb the water, and heaven forbid that any American has to WAIT more than five seconds for anything.

It seems to be much more easily available in Britain, so you may be able to find it in Canada more easily than here.

I read online that Canada has a product called Dynamic Heavy Duty Wallpaper paste #210, which is highly recommended by silkscreeners who use it in their work. It's the same stuff.

Just be aware that if the container doesn't SAY 'cellulose' on it, it isn't what you want. Many wallpaper adhesives are starch- (flour) based products, usually flour or cornstarch. Of the three types of wallpaper paste, the only other one is vinyl-based, and the word 'vinyl' is usually clearly visible.

Sue

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#9 2008-07-20 04:17:17

Sprockett
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2008-07-15
Posts: 13

Re: new to this medium

i've decided to try pulped papier mache to sculpt a figure along with wrap around strips of papier mache. i am following these directions from the tutorials from this website:

<<<Pulped papier mache
This method will make a mixture of clay-like papier mache to sculpt with.
To make a pulp, soak some torn up newspaper in water overnight. Drain, and then boil in some clean water for about 30 minutes, until the fibres start to break up. Sieve the pulp and throw away the water. Beat or whisk the pulp to break up the fibres. Mix the adhesive into the pulp until it forms a clay-like consistency.>>>

Question: I have ripped newspaper into small squares and put them into a large bowl of hot tap water. Is it ok that i ripped them into tiny square bits? Also, should i have boiled the water? It says that i need to boil the water tomorrow, but it doesn't specify the water temp for the first stage.

i am thinking of using straight elmer's glue.
will that work ok?
i am looking for the wallpaper paste that Sue has recommended, (thanks much Sue!) but until then...

the clay consistency you get from pulped papier mache, is it sculptable like clay but just much lighter in weight?

if i do find the wallpaper paste, am i supposed to mix it with boiled water, and then let it cool?

thanks again. my piece is due to be ready on August 5 so i gotta get to it!
hope it works out and i can show it to you all!

Last edited by Sprockett (2008-07-20 04:17:49)

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#10 2008-07-20 08:47:25

newmodeller
Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 2007-02-07
Posts: 240
Website

Re: new to this medium

The initial soaking is to loosen the fibres in the paper, they swell as they absorb the water, I have experimented with luke warm, cold and hot water and it hasn't made any noticeable difference to the final pulp that I can see, or speeded up the process.  What you now need to do is boil the water and paper mix to loosen and break down the paper completely.  When you have done this let the mixture cool and then you will need to get it into a porridge like consistency.  there are various ways of doing this.  I tend to put mine into an old liquidizer, in small batches, whizz it up and then dump it into an old colander to squeeze out the water.  Others use a beater/paint mixer on an a drill (I think David uses this method, my other half refuses to let me at the drill!).

The next stage is to get out the water, I start with the colander to get rid of the majority and then put it in a cotton bag (like and old pillow case) and I squeeze out as much as possible.  I then used to let it dry off in the bowl but I am planning to lay out the next batch on old baking sheets so that it will dry faster.

Once this is dry you can make up the clay, I would ask David about the glues, I have never dried just Elmers and have know idea if it would work, I would have thought that a mix of water and elmers would.  I mix paste, filler (sawdust, spackle, chalk etc) and paper pulp together and knead it until I have a workable dough that holds together, then off I go!

Experimentation is the best way to find the method that is right for you.  I personally found that I didn't get a properly adhesive pulp unless the paper was as dry as I could get it, if it was too wet it just crumbled and fell apart.

Have a look round the web, yahoo has a papiermache user group and they have some good advice.  The Canadian puppeteer Ronnie Burkitt has a recipe posted that friends reckon is fantastic (google proptology and it should come up).
Charlotte
ps, with newspaper be careful, printers put old sump oil in the ink and it stains everything, will leave a horrible scummy mark and is worth skimming off the boiling mix if you can.  You will get it on your hands as well so I recommend you use a good moisturiser before you start otherwise you will have dry and eczema-ish patches all over you.  Wash thoroughly afterwards and re-moisturise, something like Neutrogena is excellent.

Last edited by newmodeller (2008-07-20 08:50:27)


www.pawtraits.co.uk
www.puppetsndolls.etsy.com
Papiermache.co.uk gallery: Charlotte Hills

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#11 2008-07-20 13:46:57

Sprockett
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2008-07-15
Posts: 13

Re: new to this medium

thanks so much Charlotte! i am learning so much! i found the ronnie burkett recipe page you were talking about and read it. i think i am going with recipe #4. for "whiting", can i use simple kids chalk and just mash up a couple of sticks of it?

also, should i allow the pulp to dry after boiling (i like your baking sheet idea!) and then only once dry do i add the other mix of ingredients, or do i add the mix before laying it out to dry?

edit: i think you were saying that i allow the pulp to dry and then add the glue and fillers afterwards.

since i have read that it can take weeks for the pulp to dry, i may create a styrofoam armature and put the pulp over that. does that sound reasonable?

thanks again so much. i really appreciate also your advice about protecting my hands, as i am prone to eczema.

edit: ok i have (i think) successfully finished making the pulp. it is all laid out on a baking tray. it resembles dryer lint. speaking of which, in the article Charlotte sent me to of Ronnie Burkett, he talks about wanting to try incorporating dryer lint into his mix. i wonder how that turned out.

anyone here use dryer lint?

Last edited by Sprockett (2008-07-20 15:09:35)

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#12 2008-07-21 20:07:09

Sprockett
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2008-07-15
Posts: 13

Re: new to this medium

yikes!

i am concerned with how my paper pulp is drying. it is all a bunch of hard ish lumps. is that normal? will it blend out into a claylike substance once the fillers and adhesives are mixed with it?

thanks much.

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#13 2008-07-21 21:01:13

newmodeller
Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 2007-02-07
Posts: 240
Website

Re: new to this medium

any chance of a photo?


www.pawtraits.co.uk
www.puppetsndolls.etsy.com
Papiermache.co.uk gallery: Charlotte Hills

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#14 2008-07-22 23:11:18

CatPerson
Moderator
From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: new to this medium

Once most of the water is drained out of your pulp, you can add any adhesives and additives and get to work. There is no need to dry the pulp first, just to wet it down again to use it.

Some people dry their paper pulp to store it for future use. Dried, it is far less likely to mold, and is easier to store. DO NOT try to temporarily dry pulp that has had adhesives added to it. Just dry plain paper pulp, no additives. Think of it as pasta: make it wet, dry it, then add water and turn it into a creation.

One way to remove much of the moisture from the pulp is to use a piece of vinyl (or wire) window screening. Set the screening in a sink or larger plastic container, put your wet pulp on it, more or less formed into a longish narrow lump, then roll up the screening and squeeze as much moisture out of it as you can.  Then press between a couple of towels to absorb more of the moisture.

Your pulp will dry in lumps if it isn't flattened or formed. Paper fibers naturally clump together in water and stay that way when the water leaves, unless it is formed or manipulated. If you want lumps of pulp to be flat, use a rolling pin or a sturdy wine bottle.  Pulp balls with the moisture squeezed out, flattened into patties and pressed into flat lumps are a convenient way to dry and store them.

Keep in mind that using the maximum number of additives is not a good idea, especially when you're learning. Papier mache is paper + water + adhesive. All other additives are usually to solve a particular problem. If you don't know WHY you're adding something, don't add it.

Whole wheat flour doesn't have much in the way of adhesive properties. I don't see that it has anything to add to PM at all.

Sue

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#15 2008-07-24 19:27:32

Sprockett
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2008-07-15
Posts: 13

Re: new to this medium

unfortunately i am unable to post a picture right now but i'm trying to work that out.
thanks so much for all the help and advice!
it is very helpful to me.
i was under the impression that the pulp must be perfectly dry before use, so thanks much for responding and clarifying it for me!

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#16 2008-07-24 19:54:31

newmodeller
Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 2007-02-07
Posts: 240
Website

Re: new to this medium

Sorry, my mistake, I always dry mine completely as I store it and then mix it up in small batches at a time, usually as I tend to work in small scale so never need huge quantities.  Although due to the way I work I did find the drier the paper the better the pulp I got, but that is probably idiosyncratic to me.


www.pawtraits.co.uk
www.puppetsndolls.etsy.com
Papiermache.co.uk gallery: Charlotte Hills

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#17 2008-07-24 20:30:30

Sprockett
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2008-07-15
Posts: 13

Re: new to this medium

hey no worries! i find knowing both ways to be very helpful!

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#18 2008-07-26 06:26:42

CatPerson
Moderator
From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: new to this medium

Papier mache is very good to tailor to the individual artist's particular needs, so don't worry about doing it exactly like someone else does. Your creative energy determines how you will do a project, and will probably change as you learn and with the different ideas you have.

Artists have that option, you know!

Sue

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