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Hi all:
I have found CMC powder but I have some questions:
1-What's the really importance of its use? Does it help to smooth the surface piece?
2-I was told that some people mix only white glue + CMC + higienic or towel paper(????). Does this mixing work well? Don't you need to use paper pulp? Does it works like the regular PM pulp? Can it be named of PM too?
3-How is the proportion of white glue and CMC? Don't you need to put water?
4-How about the time you can have it? What I mean is, is it possible to conservate this mixing in a fridge as we do with the pulp? For how long?
5-How long does it take it to dry? More or less then regular PM pulp?
Thank you for your help.
Shali
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1. CMC is used as an adhesive in PM. Mixed with water (you may have to soak it overnight) to the consistency of raw eggwhites, it makes a fine, slick glue that tends to dry faster than white glue mixes.
2. The paper towel is the paper source. If you're making pulp with it (not strips), you just mix the paper towels with the CMC+water, or CMC+water+white glue. I find that it makes a softer piece than other kinds of paper, but the flexibility may be an advantage with tight curves. Otherwise it is the same. Your choice of paper is up to you, depending on what you like and what works best for a particular project.
3. Yes, absolutely you need to add water. Usually with the white glue, most people use half/half white glue and water. I only used the white glue/CMC/water mix once, and didn't like it. David may be able to give you more exact directions, as he uses the combination a lot. HEY, DAVID?
4. I know the CMC + water will last a long time at room temperature, months. There is nothing in it to go bad, as the CMC is very refined. I've never stored it mixed with white glue, but I suspect that it is storable at room temperature. I think drying may be more of an issue than spoiling. It is mainly the organic food-type adhesives that spoil quickly (wheat flour, rice flour, potato flour, etc).
5. I don't know how long the 3-way mix takes to dry, probably the time is limited by the drying of the white glue part of it, which I have always found to dry rather slowly. The CMC+water dries quite quickly.
One problem that I ran across with the white glue+CMC+ water mix: I was forming a project over a temporary rigid plastic form (I was using strips, not pulp, if that makes any difference), and layered it with the 3-way mix, maybe four layers thick, and set it to dry. I cut it off the form and let the inside dry. Then I added a few more layers and let that dry. Then I added some surface work made from pulp mixed with the same adhesive mix.
I wanted a very rigid form), but when I handled it next, it flexed more than I had anticipated. It wasn't turning out as I wanted, so I sacrificed it to 'science' and cut it apart. Looking at the layers, it appeared that the first section dried all right, but the white glue had formed a kind of surface seal over the top of that section. When I applied the second set of layers, the top surface dried the same way, but since the moisture from the second set couldn't escape very well, some moisture remained trapped between the top of the first layer and the top of the second layer. When I cut through the pulp layer, I had the same problem there. I don't know if my mix of adhesive was wrong, or if it was the addition of the plastic-based white glue forming a barrier against the escape of moisture. But I am not willing to spend the time and energy to ruin another project when just plain CMC + water does a better job (IMHO). It is my theory that since the CMC is organic and doesn't form a plastic seal over the surface, moisture can work it's way through even through dried parts so all the parts/layers can dry thoroughly.
Especially for a project involving very thick layers, I think the addition of white glue to the mix would be a mistake. Again, that's my opinion.
Sue
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I have never had any problem of drying but I prefer to do one layer at a time. As long as the ambient temperature is reasonably warm (19 or above) then drying should be very quick. Mind you, I work in smaller sizes than many people.
Proportions? Roughly one quarter volume of PVA to CMC. The resultant mix should have the consistency of thin cream.
Mixing CMC. While the powder will mix in cold water and gradually become an even gel, I find it is much better if stirred vigorously into water at about half boiling point (50 degrees). It is then left to cool and to gel evenly.
Storage. As Sue says, it stores well. I actually usually keep one or two pint tubs in the fridge and have had no deterioration over several months.
The resultant paste will mix well with pulp from any paper. Try not to have any extra water in your pulp. Just mix it with the paste until you have the clay quality that you like.
David
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Thanks Sue and David. I think it will help me a lot.
Shali
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Hi all :
I am new , but thanks to all the advice in this site , I am getting to do my mermaid .
I have a question , how many layers should i use of Pm , or I should use pulp paper .
I also dont know how to upload my pictures , i would love to show the project when is finished ,
Thank you all .
Maria
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Hello Maria
Firstly, it would be nice if you put in the country where you live. It helps everyone to get a sense of the international aspect of our community.
How many layers for your mermaid? It rather depends on how big it is to be, and how strong.
What are you thinking of using as an armature?
If you could give us an idea of the size it will help us to give an answer.
To upload pictures into the gallery, you have to register as an artist. Once you have established that, it is easy.
DavidO
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Hello David :
Thank you for answer. I am from Costa Rica , I live in San Jose .
I am a widow 55 , with two grown up kids . I have been painting , for ten years now .I love to do it .
All my life ,I was curious about PM , and when I found this web , I decided to do my mermaid .
Please excuse me for my spelling , because my Lenguage is Spanish .
The mermaid is 38" I make it of crumple pieces of paper , and tape them with masking tape, and make cylinders with twisted paper for the arms . It is very big , but i have been adding layers of paper and is still sort of soft , iI think it has about seven layers now .
Do you think that i should use some gesso , or paint to make it harder .Or the PM pulp , but I think is to big for the pulp ????
I was trying to skip the wire ,but maybe i should use it . But for me was realy simple to make the shape with the paper , and I realy love this and I am so proud .
But i realy would be very gratefull , with all your advice .
Sorry about my profile , but i am not to smart for this , subscriptions in internet I always skip something .
I am very exited and I would enjoyed very much , if I could show pictures of my progress .
Thank you very much to you all .
Sincerely,
Maria.
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Welcome to this forum, Maria! Don't worry about your English, it is fine. I wish my Spanish was as good as your English.
What kind of adhesive are you using? Could it be that the whole piece just needs to dry longer? You wouldn't want to paint or seal it until it is perfectly dry. Paint will not add strength.
Usually, something that large needs a stiff skeleton. If you 'skeleton' is flexible (like your twisted paper), that may be the problem.
It may also need more layers to give more support. Seven layers should be enough for many projects, but something that large with an inner skeleton that bends might need a heavier outer 'shell'.
In my opinion, paper strips are stronger than pulp (unless you make the pulp quite thick), so I wouldn't worry about that.
One thing that might help with your next mermaid is sticks from the garden, branches about as thick as your finger. You could probably build up the thickness of the arms by wrapping the twisted paper around the sticks. If you used green flexible sticks, you could even bend/break it where a joint (like an elbow) would be, so you wouldn't have to find a way to connect separate pieces there.
Working with PM is certainly a learning experience, isn't it?
Sue
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Hello Sue :
I have been using flour and water, because I like very much the way how easy you could add the paper stripes .
Maybe less sticky ,we are in our rainy season now , so the weather does not help .The humidity its very high , but I use a fan , to help drying .When the sun is shining , I take them out .
I am also making a matryoshka , with a ballon , and on canvas , another mermaid , with the technique of one of the tutorials , with styrofoam peanuts, PM , and caulking .
As you could see , I'm fascinated with PM .
All my friends are sending me materials I could recycle .
Do you think I should use carpenters glue instead , maybe it drys faster and is more strong .
The hair of both mermaids , its so beautiful .
I use house painting with latex , sometimes , but Im not sure if I should .Maybe with the time the colors would fade .
What do you think about this ?
Because Im just begining with PM , I dont want to use my fine arts acrylics .For big areas ???????????...
The ballon for the matryoshka , is not very smooth the PM , you could see the paper stripes all over ??????????
All the advices are welcome .
Thank you again .
Maria .
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Your high humidity is likely to be the problem. When you use a fan to blow air over it, it may appear to be mostly dry, but I don't think it will be dryer than the air surrounding it. One of the problems with flour is that it will absorb moisture from the air. You can't even seal it until it is truly dry, or it will mold under the sealant.
Since you live in such a humid area, using wood glue could be much better.
Latex house paint is really an acrylic. It would be good to use to cover the larger parts of the mermaid, then just use your acrylics for details. There would be no conflict between these materials.
The rough surface is an constant problem for those who work in PM. One way to reduce it is to try to make every piece of paper lie down smoothly, without wrinkles. Press each piece of paper down very well as you apply it. Wrinkles are usually produced when the paper strips or patches are too large for the curved areas. Adjust the size of the strips to fit the areas. Large, flat areas can be covered with large strips, but smaller pieces must be used on small or curved areas. When you get wrinkles, ask yourself if a smaller piece of paper would have been better. Also consider using triangles for curved areas, rather than strips. If you do get an occasional wrinkle, try to burnish it down with the top of your fingernail or the bottom of a spoon.
If you still have some rough spots, let the piece dry well, then wrap a piece of sandpaper around a piece of flat wood and smooth it down. Then continue with your project. Sanding will probably be the best way to smooth the final surface, too. Just using a piece of sandpaper with your fingers won't work.
Your mermaid sounds beautiful. I hope you can post a photo of it when it is finished.
Sue
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I think you will get on fine. Most of us advise not using flour. As Sue says, it absorbs moisture. Also rodents like it and, in time, it becomes brittle.
Best is a combination of wallpaper paste (75%) and PVA (25%) to a working consistency of thin cream. Apply very thinly to the paper.
To make the whole thing tougher and harder, you could use quite strong paper. About ten layers of alternating kraft (brown wrapping paper) and bond (office paper) applied with hardly any wrinkles and allowed to dry between no more than two layers, would be very strong.
Another modelling medium is tinfoil (that is used for covering food and roasting). If you took a stick and then pressed tinfoil around it in varying thicknesses, you would find you could make a strong armature for (for example) a leg. With paper laminate all around it would be very strong and firm.
Go for it gal!
DavidO
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Thanks Sue and David .
I will follow all your advices , to improve my work .
Let you know , when everything is finished .
Sue where I could send you the pictures , I cant open a gallerie , because I am not and artist .
Maria .
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YES, you are an artist! You're making a mermaid from papier mache! Only an artist would do that!
You can post your photos here. Let us know here on the forum when you do.
Sue
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Sue or somebody Help :
I think i made a bigggggggggg.mistake , I add last night modge podge Gloss Lustre to seal the mermaid from humidity (this my idea of course ), And today i paint it with gesso , it crackles of course , I should know this because I paint , but the Modge podge says it was a water based thing , so I think nothing would happen .
Help I wish you where online now , I dont know , if wraped again in paper , or just wait until it is dry and use a coat of carpenters glue over it maybe mixed whit white acrylic paint LOL..
The worst thing is that I have the feeling , that this gesso hand is going to fall down .
I wait for replys .
Thank all of you .
Maria.
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Have just had a look at ModPodge, this is where your problem comes in, it may be waterbased but it looks as though the water is a solvent for the chemicals that create the gloss lustre finish. Maria are you able to post a picture of your mermaid? That way someone may be able to see what solution would be best for your work.
something like this has happened to me in the past and I had to strip off the layers back to the armature and re-mache the piece. YOU MAY NOT HAVE TO DO THIS!
It sounds as though the layers under the glaze weren't completely dry, humidity is a real problem and I am not sure how you will get round it, you really need a drying cabinet to get all the water out of the mermaid.
I think that Sue or David may be able to help better than me.
Charlotte
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I hope Sue may be able to give good advice - she has a more scientific knowledge of some of the materials than me.
As Charlotte says, it would be helpful if you could post a picture.
My guess is that if you sandpaper hard to remove the outer layer, you could paint it with undiluted PVA than apply some paper layers again.
What is it like to have people all over the world doing what they can to help?
DavidO
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I think Charlotte is right, your mermaid wasn't dry enough. If you can press it and it feels even a little soft, it wasn't dry. If you feel it (in the shade) and it feels a little cooler than the parts you knew were dry, it wasn't dry.
I think that Mod Podge is just another form of white PVA glue. I could be wrong, but the Material Safety and Data Sheet (MSDS) indicates that.
If the rest of the mermaid seems all right and it's just the hand, you'll either have to peel the outer layers off and re-build it, or possibly remove the entire hand, start over, and then attach it to the body.
I suspect that all your problems are due to your high humidity, and the flour adhesive you used isn't helping, as it will keep re-absorbing moisture from the air.
If you have a cardboard box and some clear plastic, you could build a solar oven to dry your project. Granted, it would have to be fairly large to hold the entire mermaid.
The basic solar dryer: Find a cardboard or wooden box large enough for your project (PM must not touch walls). Remove cardboard or wood from front and top of box. Replace front and top with clear plastic. You will aim the front at the sun. IMPORTANT: There must be ventilation! Cut several holes along the bottom and top of the of both side walls; each hole should be at least 5cm in diameter . You want air to come into the box through the bottom holes, the sun will heat the air inside the box, and the hot air will rise quite rapidly and exit through the top holes. The faster the air can move through the box, the faster the PM will dry.
As soon as the project is dry, apply a coating of your latex house paint over the entire piece (even the bottom -- any uncovered areas will allow moisture to penetrate), then you can decorate more at your leisure, and then seal it.
I hope you can find a way to salvage your mermaid.
Sue
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Charlote , David and Sue :
I want to post the pictures of the mermaid , I have lots ( I wont put all dont worry ) , but in here I cant .
I have them on a folder , what ever I do , this does not let me.
I send each of you and email , maybe with my adress , it works different .
Sue is more or less in my hours , if she answer my email , I send the pictures to her address and maybe she could make a foward to all of you .
I dont know how this works , or the etiquette , in the program about emails or pictures.
I only have Russ email , it was the email for the subscription .
About my mermaid , maybe I was impatient , about the drying , and with this weather ( I need a boat ).
I learn with my painting , that everything has a solution , so I keep on with her , willing to show pictures .
Maria .
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Hello, Maria! I received your photos, and David should be posting them shortly.
Looking at the photos, I think Charlotte is correct in that the surface crackling is due to a chemical conflict of the two materials (ModPodge and gesso) that you put on the surface, particularly in the ORDER you put them on your mermaid. It might have worked out all right if you had put the gesso on first, and then the ModPodge as a sealer.
The only thing I know to do with the surface is to coat the entire piece with a good-quality paint primer that is suitable for adding acrylic/latex on top. The cheap ones aren't much good, in my opinion. Once the mermaid is painted and dry, I would use something like varnish as a sealer.
For the hands, I would be tempted to make them separately and then attach them when they are dry. Without a rigid skeleton/armature in the arms, I would probably cut the ends of the arms off at an angle, then make the hands and fit them to the arms, making them with a matching angle above the wrists. Trim as needed, and then wrap the joint with more paper strips for a secure attachment.
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If you don't understand what I mean, please ask for more details.
Your work is very beautiful. You have good color sense. I'm sure your PM mermaid will be exquisite when it is finished!
Sue
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Hola .
I have that hunch when I apply the modge podge coat ,that was nice insulation glue .
By the way ,I love it . In my orther mermaid I added as a last coat in the hair , to protect it , and looks hard and very strong .
Have you ever used it ?.
Maybe I am impress because I never used the PVA to glue , that should be the same i guess .
brb
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I want to try and old strecht blouse of my daughter , to dress her on the top , add some PVA , let it dry , and then give it one or more hands of latex paint, then one or more coats of PVA , and finaly I have to make a choice of color .Also add some scales to the fin .The end of the tail I have to reinforced because was not strong enough , I use a box cardboard .
Honestly I never think of the hands , I was going to make a fish on top of them ...
I have to confess how much I enjoyed this proyect , for example , the face , I take 3 leaves of foil , and mask my face . Then I use kitchen cooking spray and make PM strips until I have a sort of a face , but my nose is so small ,so when I adhere it to her head , I bought a clay ,to sculped her nose bigger mouth ...........But I am not Michelangelo, at first she looks funny , (still ), but less. So finally I made some PM paste , and fix it my way ))))))......
But if someone is thinking about make some PM , and is new like me , this is fascinating .
Because , reading in here , searching all over for ideas and all the support you get from the forum , its amazing.
Is the blouse a good idea ? Because , I am a menace , my creativity has her own mind . But not enough knowledge.
You all know that I speak Spanish , so I dont use a translator ,(no time ) please let me know , if what I want to describe its OK. ?
In a few years some of my friends are going to be retired ,and they always said they have two left hands . I want to be able , to teach them , something ,so they dont feel sad when their working lives finish . This is very important .
Saludos .
Maria.
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That stretch blouse may be polyester, so you should probably do an experiment on a small piece to see how it reacts with the adhesives and paint. Polyester is a kind of plastic, and you might have trouble getting the adhesive and paint to stick properly.
If the blouse is polyester + cotton, it may work. If it's all cotton (or mostly), it will probably be perfect.
Sue
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Hello Sue , yes you are right ,about the polyester. I need a cotton blouse .im going to look around to see .
I bought yesterday a heather is a compact one and cheap Bionaire, to fast the drying of the PM , I never try this .
And I am going to make the hands you said , maybe not with fingers , but like snow glove ,four together and the thumb , for easy design , because my idea of the fish , is not good , is going to rest important to the figure .
I am around working so , I would be cheking the forum .
Thank you very much .
Maria .
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Hello if I used this electric drier , I used my guest bathroom that is like a dark room , but i dont know , the time of drying for pulp ?
Should I leave ventilation ? Or should be in an open place .
Other question is about the wallpaper paste , should I dilute the powder first in water , if is yes how much ( tablespoon ) , and then mixed it with PVA ?.
If I add This wallpaper paste to PVA it gets more strong _'?
Maria
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The moisture from the PM needs to be able to leave the room, so leave a window or door open.
Some of the cellulose adhesives resist wetting, some mix almost instantly. I would mix a spoonful into a cup of water and let it sit between one hour and 24 hours. Stir well but don't beat air into it. Stir again after sitting and rub some between your fingers. If it appears thick and jelly-like, put a spoonful of the mixed adhesive into a cup and gradually add more water, checking for consistency each time. When it's about the consistency of thin eggwhite, it is about right. It stores well at room temperature.
Someone else will have to explain about using it with PVA white glue.
Sue
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