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I need to know

#1 2007-04-19 06:57:17

Lengo
Member
From: Springfield, Oregon, USA
Registered: 2007-03-21
Posts: 153

I need to know

And I don't wanna make an experiment!  I figger somebody has tried this. Anybody?

I'm thinking that If I soak a thick piece of paper in PVA + Wallpaper paste, this will harden the paper. I'll find a way to keep it flat. (these are gonna be butterfly wings).

Does this work? Or is there a better way to harden paper?

p.s. The paper will also be Gessoed, which will add a little hardening too.

p.p.s. Anybody willing to help paint both sides of 11+ butterflies? SHEESH!  :shock:

p.p.p. (oh my goodness) s.  --

I'm considering doing this too. I doubt his will work, but it's a thought. What if you printed butterflies on your computer onto Iron On Transfer paper, then apply them to hardened paper. Has anyone tried this?

I don't care if it's cheating! I'm no purest (except I'm a pure kid at heart).  lol


If you see spelling errors, it's becaue my fingers are glued to my keyboard!

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#2 2007-04-19 07:39:07

newmodeller
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From: Nottingham
Registered: 2007-02-07
Posts: 240
Website

Re: I need to know

I made fairy wings for one of my dolls by using a thin sheet of stiff paper and then laminating tissue paper onto the sheet.  It curls although you could try stretching it to dry.  The following is theoretical but works for textiles etc

To do this you would need to make the laminations on the centre of the central sheet and leave a 1-2 inch margin around the side. This I would then border with masking tape.  Using a needle and thread (strongish linen or doubled cotton) sew your sheet to a frame.  Hard to describe but easier to draw.  I will draw a set of stages and post them on the gallery for you after I have taken the kids to school.


www.pawtraits.co.uk
www.puppetsndolls.etsy.com
Papiermache.co.uk gallery: Charlotte Hills

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#3 2007-04-19 14:49:44

snoozysnowshoes
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From: England
Registered: 2007-01-29
Posts: 153
Website

Re: I need to know

Hi Lengo

I made some fairy wings a few weeks ago using good quality kitchen paper towel and water/PVA mix.
Glue 4-6 layers down on a board covered with cling wrap I use a small house hold paint brush to get it smooth and to make sure there is no pattern left on the paper ( most kitchen towel has a dot pattern on them.)
Allow to dry you should end up with a lovely stiff sheet of paper.
I will say again make sure its good quality as you don't want the paper ripping or fluffing up.

Sue.

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#4 2007-04-19 16:20:17

newmodeller
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From: Nottingham
Registered: 2007-02-07
Posts: 240
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Re: I need to know

How did you get it to lie flat? I always seem to get at least some warp.


www.pawtraits.co.uk
www.puppetsndolls.etsy.com
Papiermache.co.uk gallery: Charlotte Hills

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#5 2007-04-19 21:36:41

Lengo
Member
From: Springfield, Oregon, USA
Registered: 2007-03-21
Posts: 153

Re: I need to know

Thanks, but I'm gonna go ahead and make an experiment. I don't want to any layering or any of that.  This paper is pretty thick and I'm *fairly* certain that soaking it in glue, letting it dry, then gessoing it will make it stiff enough for my purpose.

I'll let you know how this turns out.

I'm gonna have a lotta time in this as it is. I'm gonna have at least 13 butterflies to paint, both sides, so this is gonna be time consuming enough. There gonna be fairly accurately painted in three colors. They are Monarch butterflies.

If I had my way (and I still may do this), there may be as many as 35 butterflies!  This will make a fairly large swarm that would measure about 18 inches by 24 inches (a pretty bold color statement).  But that seems like a hella lotta work!  :shock:


If you see spelling errors, it's becaue my fingers are glued to my keyboard!

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#6 2007-04-20 04:05:37

CatPerson
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From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: I need to know

I have no idea for the making of the wings, but I do have a thought on the painting of the wings.

Make your paper pattern of the wing design, then get a few sheets of thin acetate, outline the wings (remember to mark left and right).  Then trace your design onto the acetate.  Using an Exacto knife, carefully cut out the wing design to make two stencils, for right and left.

This would be easier and quicker than trying to do each one freehand.

Sue

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#7 2007-04-20 04:18:26

CatPerson
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From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: I need to know

Oh, a thought!

Use newmodeller's idea, but instead of sewing it down, pin it down to a stiff board with push pins. Stretch it and put pins along the edge every inch or so.

I would assume that you would have to do each side independently so you wouldn't attach the paper to the board...  roll

sue

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#8 2007-04-20 07:12:28

Lengo
Member
From: Springfield, Oregon, USA
Registered: 2007-03-21
Posts: 153

Re: I need to know

Well, THAT didn't work! 

I can't really tell if it stiffened it. If it did, only imperceptibly. But it did exaggerate the texture of the paper!  Not good.  Abort this step.

Oh well!  I think the paper is stiff enough. Once gessoed and coated with polycrylic, it'll stand up to normal use. It is not a toy. It will be cared for like silk flowers.

I like the idea of the acetate, Cat, but where do I get this stuff? And wouldn't be easier to just make a silk screen? Actetate is what's use for silk screening.  Where can I buy this on the nylon screen? Then again, that's awfully mechanical. I want ART, not production volume (then again, if I make another one of these ......)

CRAP! I dunno what I'm gonna do.

I have applied some gesso to a fairly large piece of this paper, so that I can make painting experiments. I'm gonna try a number of things:

1.  Make a wet fade from yellow to orange, applying the yellow on top of the orange while both paints are wet.

2. Make a wash fade on wet orange with the yellow.

3. Make a wash fade on dry orange with the yellow.

4. When the color is dry, see how well the black covers any underlapping orange/yellow.

5. Make small white dots on the black, to see how well it covers (this, I'm afraid, is not gonna work very well, but we'll see).

This is interesting too: After applying the Gesso, the paper bows upward making a very shallow dome.  This is not a problem though. I've already bought 4 six inch screws, washers, and wing nuts to make a press. I already had the board, so the expense was under $3 US!  I just gotta cut the board and drill it tomorrow. I have plenty of corrugated cardboard to go between the layers. And I mean PLENTY!  Flattening should not present a problem.

Anyway, the Gesso is drying and I'll be able to test paint tomorrow.  I've traced 14 of these butterflies, and still want more. Probably 19-21 will be right. I have both male and female patterns (which one is which?), and each is printed in three sizes (small, medium, large). This will come pretty cool! Even if it doesn't, somebody will buy it!

The REAL question is, will I go nuts trying to paint these suckers? That's a hella lotta detailed painting!   :shock: 

The second real question is, who is gonna come visit me at the funny farm on visiting days?  big_smile


p.s. Gus is ready to paint (almost). He's got his shoes on (I gotta patch the weld up some). I made his hair bigger, and this is now gessoed and ready to paint. 

I'm gonna paint his head separately before attaching it. This will probably be easier. Then after gluing it on, I'll fix up his neck, then paint his body.  If all goes well, I should have him finished by Saturday afternoon. WOO HOO!


If you see spelling errors, it's becaue my fingers are glued to my keyboard!

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#9 2007-04-20 08:34:03

snoozysnowshoes
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From: England
Registered: 2007-01-29
Posts: 153
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Re: I need to know

How did you get it to lie flat? I always seem to get at least some warp.

It just lies flat by nature of the paper as you really paste the layers flat with a brush. You could also place items between the layers for very interesting results. I made elf ears last year by putting the bone structure i had made between the layers.

Sue.

If it should have a small warp when dry put under a pile of books  big_smile ..

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#10 2007-04-20 17:20:00

Lengo
Member
From: Springfield, Oregon, USA
Registered: 2007-03-21
Posts: 153

Re: I need to know

I just put the piece of wet paper on a sheet of wax paper. The curl was minimal.

I like the idea of putting something between layers!  That's a cool tip! Thanks! I guess you'd have to use thin paper and do some burnishing, but the result would be great for all kinds of things. Hmmm... I bet you could make a bumpy texture IN the paper instead of on it.  I have a need for something that would produce the flowers on broccoli. This just might work! Woot woot! I'm gonna give that a try!  big_smile


If you see spelling errors, it's becaue my fingers are glued to my keyboard!

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#11 2007-04-21 04:01:33

CatPerson
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From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: I need to know

I forgot to mention that when you use the gesso and it warps the cardboard into a dome, gesso the opposite side, too.  This even works with wood.

I don't think you mentioned how large these butterflies will be.

Re: silkscreening. You might be getting into some money for this, if you're butterflies are of any size.  All the kits I've seen are for greeting card-sized results.

I think the acetate stencil would be simpler (more simple?).  Call a few of your local crafts stores and ask if they have sheets of acetate for stencils (specify size).

May I assume that you are using acrylic paints?

Sue

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#12 2007-04-21 05:44:01

Lengo
Member
From: Springfield, Oregon, USA
Registered: 2007-03-21
Posts: 153

Re: I need to know

Yes. I'm using acrylics. And I got play with them today (my second time for painting). Was super fun!

These are natural sized.  About 3" wingspan. Sumpin' like that. I haven't measured 'em.

The paint tests I made today lead me to believe that these are NOT going to be hard to paint. They will be much easier than I thought. ONe thing I didn't try though, was painting on non-gessoed surface. If I can skip this step, I'll get done sooner.

I may end up with acrylic stencils, but I don't mind these being a little different from each other. In fact, I welcome that. But if these sell fast, I'll consider it.

Thanks for your help! Sheesh! What would I do without you!  big_smile


If you see spelling errors, it's becaue my fingers are glued to my keyboard!

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#13 2007-04-26 10:39:05

Lengo
Member
From: Springfield, Oregon, USA
Registered: 2007-03-21
Posts: 153

Re: I need to know


Make your paper pattern of the wing design, then get a few sheets of thin acetate, outline the wings (remember to mark left and right).  Then trace your design onto the acetate.  Using an Exacto knife, carefully cut out the wing design to make two stencils, for right and left.

Sue

Ack! I tried that. It didn't work. I spent all day trying that and fudging a silk screen (that blows even worse), and accomplished nothing exccept finding out what doesn't work. I even tried printing a color image, and decoupaging it, then varnishing. That lacks color saturation!

Then I found this!

http://www.cbridge.com/products/stencilpro.shtml

This stuff is cool!  You print your design on overhead transparency. Then put it between some clear sheets (glass or acetate) and expose it to sunlight. Then you soak it in water. Where light didn't hit the stencilpro, it washes away. NO CUTTING! Then you put it on your paper (or whatever) and squeegee your paint through the mesh. You can use your stencil over and over and over!  Good! 'Cause I need about 36 butterflies for this piece, and I'll make at least 3 of these butterfly swarms!

I bought the starter kit and extra sheets. I need six stencils (3 male butterflies and 3 female). It's kind of pricey, but it's gonna save me a whole helluva whole lotta time!  big_smile


If you see spelling errors, it's becaue my fingers are glued to my keyboard!

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#14 2007-04-26 11:19:46

snoozysnowshoes
Member
From: England
Registered: 2007-01-29
Posts: 153
Website

Re: I need to know

I'm pretty sure you can make wings without paying out for expesive products all the time.
I am a Junk Bunny and as such will take on this experiment and let you know how I get on. There goes my sanity I don't know about wings but I will be off with the fairies soon big_smile .

Sue.

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#15 2007-04-27 00:53:38

Lengo
Member
From: Springfield, Oregon, USA
Registered: 2007-03-21
Posts: 153

Re: I need to know

Well, I need to make a ton of 'em, so this is gonna help a lot. ANd if I ever want more, I can make 'em very easily.

Sometimes you just gotta bear the expense. Either that or spend an eternity making what you could have made rapidly and easily. There's no virtue in doing it the hard way when it's not necessary or dreadfully impractical.

Yeah, you can do it without a cash expense, but the time expense is prohibitive.


If you see spelling errors, it's becaue my fingers are glued to my keyboard!

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#16 2007-04-28 12:43:45

snoozysnowshoes
Member
From: England
Registered: 2007-01-29
Posts: 153
Website

Re: I need to know

Lengo take a look in my gallery space at the bottom tell me what you think. if it's what your after I will write down how I made them.

Sue

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#17 2007-04-28 18:23:47

Lengo
Member
From: Springfield, Oregon, USA
Registered: 2007-03-21
Posts: 153

Re: I need to know

I can't find your gallery space!


If you see spelling errors, it's becaue my fingers are glued to my keyboard!

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#18 2007-04-29 01:04:43

CatPerson
Moderator
From: Washington State, U.S.A.
Registered: 2006-01-09
Posts: 1314

Re: I need to know

Len, Snoozysnowshoes is Susan Oldfield. She's on the first page of the gallery.

Sue

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#19 2007-04-29 04:29:35

Lengo
Member
From: Springfield, Oregon, USA
Registered: 2007-03-21
Posts: 153

Re: I need to know

Yes, those are very nice! They're very dainty. How big are those? How did you construct them?

The trouble is, I need a zillion of 'em, all the same. ANd I've already bought this silk screen stuff, so I'm not gonna backtrack.

Still, your's are awfully gorgeous! Did you use tissue paper for color?

THEM'S NICE!


If you see spelling errors, it's becaue my fingers are glued to my keyboard!

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#20 2007-04-30 09:28:42

snoozysnowshoes
Member
From: England
Registered: 2007-01-29
Posts: 153
Website

Re: I need to know

Hi Len

As I have already quoted (1st page third quote down, please read) these are made from good quality kitchen roll. Six layers works very well as it is still thin but strong.
These butterflies are just tests,  so quite rough and no attention to real ones regarding colour or size.The ones I made are about 4 & 1/2 inches from top wing tip to the other wing tip. I made a template of a whole butterfly.
Before I laid down the last layer to be laminated i drew out the outlines of the butterflies and glued it down. This is important to do as the paint butterflies have to be done while the paper is wet as it allows the paint to bleed together very well. This was only the main colours first, as any fine work is done after it has dried. (paint watered down but not to thin.)
This also allows the out line to be seen if you like the other butterfly the one I made using coloured tissue paper also made while the laminate is wet then dried in one go which saves time and energy.Because the tissue overlaps you still get that blend of colours and tear the tissue don't cut it just works better. As with the paint butterfly any fine detail can be done with paint or pen when dry.
When dry cut out do the fine detail and all I did was fold in half. You could use fine wire or black nylon thread for legs or antennae.
You should get quite a few out of one laminate sheet depending on the size of butterfly you want.
I feel they don't have to be perfect and on some just make them up as you go.

Sue

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#21 2007-04-30 11:03:01

Lengo
Member
From: Springfield, Oregon, USA
Registered: 2007-03-21
Posts: 153

Re: I need to know

Well, they're stunningly beautiful!

I understand obout the laminating of the paper, but don't understand the painting technique. Perhaps you could make a tutorial about how to paint and get this effect.

Good job! Absolutely beautiful! Superbly delicate and enchanting! Wow!


If you see spelling errors, it's becaue my fingers are glued to my keyboard!

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#22 2007-04-30 18:19:56

snoozysnowshoes
Member
From: England
Registered: 2007-01-29
Posts: 153
Website

Re: I need to know

Just paint straight after the laminating while its still wet from pasting down. The water pva mix is very watery so you don't stick while your working. The paint will bleed over the template lines but don't worry your going to cut it out. use watered down paint not straight from the tube but don't make the paint to thin you will lose depth of colour.

Sue. big_smile

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